STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
President Trump's new travel ban blocks people from a dozen countries from entering the United States, and it puts limits on people from another seven. The administration says they're imposing this ban because of visa overstays and terrorism concerns and poor vetting systems. A lot of this is familiar, of course, because Trump introduced a travel ban back in 2017. He had promised to ban Muslims from entering the United States, then adjusted the ban a few times. There was still an intense backlash.
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UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: No hate, no fear. Refugees are welcome here. No hate, no fear. Refugees are welcome here.
INSKEEP: People protested at airports across this country. Lawyers showed up to offer pro bono help for travelers. This time, the travel ban landed, it seems, with far less public outrage - just another thing the president was doing on a Wednesday. Mariam Masumi is an immigration lawyer in Virginia who's helping families affected by the new restrictions. She's here to talk about this. Good morning.
MARIAM MASUMI: Good morning. Thank you for having me.
INSKEEP: Why do you think that the travel ban has been greeted with less drama this time?
MASUMI: Well, unlike the abrupt rollout of the 2017 ban, which, as you mentioned, led to really widespread confusion and protests, this current travel ban was really crafted with more precision legally. It includes specific exemptions for lawful permanent residents and dual nationals. And you are seeing that there are more waivers available to individuals who would otherwise be impacted. And additionally, the administration really provided advanced notice of this travel ban, and it should allow for more orderly implementation and likely would reduce immediate public disruption.
INSKEEP: Oh, this is very interesting to hear. You're saying that as a lawyer whose clients may not like this ban at all, at least they have been a little more precise about exactly what they're doing, and it affects fewer people. Is that right?
MASUMI: Yes. And I also think that a significant difference, as well, is that the current travel ban, a lot of people are really fatigued by this. You know, a significant difference here is that the first travel ban, you know, Trump was openly saying very racist things, that he's going to ban Muslims from the country. And at this point, people have gotten used to that, and there's this fatigue and tiredness around it, and we've unfortunately gotten very used to these policies. And I think that's a reason, as well, that people are not really up in arms about this.
INSKEEP: Has the administration arrived at some rationales that you would find to be a little more legitimate, not saying, I want to ban Muslims because what the hell is going on - and I'm just quoting things the president said once upon a time - but saying, well, we have this issue with visa overstays, and we're concerned about that.
MASUMI: They have gone into more reasons as to why they've decided to put these countries on the travel ban list. For example, there are categories of people who the ban is not going to affect. There are also waivers for individuals who are otherwise impacted by the ban but can still seek entry into the United States if they can establish that they are eligible to receive a national interest waiver. So there are - this has all been done very purposefully because the first time around, Trump was not able to have his travel ban stick, and it went to the Supreme Court two times before it finally stuck the third time. And a big reason for that was because the first travel ban was very vague and had a lot of discriminatory undertones. And so this time, they've tried to make sure that there is more specific legal provision, and they're really trying to make sure that this is something that can be upheld should litigation move forward on it.
INSKEEP: Had people in your line of work been talking about the reimposition of some kind of a ban, and were you all largely ready for this moment?
MASUMI: Absolutely. This is something that, you know, we expected to happen. And I imagine there will be legal challenges to the current ban, but I do think that they've been very careful in how they've crafted it. They've taken their time with it. They've learned their lessons from the first time around in doing this. And so that's why you're seeing a rollout that's a little bit later, not immediate the way the first travel ban came around. And you're seeing more waiver categories, more exemptions of people and also a larger number of countries. This time around, you don't have just seven majority-Muslim countries. You have countries from Africa.
INSKEEP: Yeah.
MASUMI: You have countries from the Caribbean. So that's - we all expected that this would happen.
INSKEEP: Do you still expect to have clients who are, in - from your perspective, seriously harmed by this?
MASUMI: Absolutely. This is a policy that's going to impact families. It's going to impact people who are trying to further their careers. It's going to impact refugees who are fleeing persecution and harm. This is going to have a global impact, as well, on our reputation in the world. And we're basically closing our doors for immigrants, and it's very unfortunate that this type of policy has become normalized.
INSKEEP: Mariam Masumi is immigration lawyer with Johnson & Masumi in Virginia. Thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate it.
MASUMI: Thank you so much. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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